The making of Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood: Teaching healthy habits in the digital age

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Stronger communities begin with good health—for everyone. You’re listening to the “Good Health, Better World” podcast, presented by UPMC Health Plan.  

This season, we’re exploring ways to achieve good health in today’s complex world. I’m your host, Dr. Ellen Beckjord. Let’s get started.

In this episode, we're hearing from Chris Loggins, supervising producer, and Hedda Sharapan, child development consultant at Fred Rogers Productions, to learn about the process behind children's television programs and strategies for encouraging healthy habits from a young age.

Chris, welcome to “Good Health, Better World.”

Chris Loggins: Thank you. Excited to be here.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Hedda, welcome to “Good Health, Better World.”

Hedda Sharapan: Thanks for inviting us.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Before we jump in, Chris, can you tell us a little bit about your role at Fred Rogers Productions?

Chris Loggins: Sure. I'm the supervising producer on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood. I actually started on the show 12 years ago before it premiered. I started as a production manager, but, as supervising producer, I work with a great team of people – animators, musicians, producers, to make the show and, you know, always a big win to deliver it on time and make sure that it's up to our quality standards.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: And Hedda, can you tell us about both your current role and your history with Fred Rogers Productions?

Hedda Sharapan: I started with Fred Rogers in the very first day of production of Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. I was in graduate school studying child development at Fred Rogers’ suggestion and finished my degree and was able to use that as not only—I was assistant director, then assistant producer, helped a lot in production. Then, when we started the Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, I was asked to be a script consultant working through the scripts to see how we could maintain the approach, the important care, the thoughtfulness, the child development foundation that is a part of what Fred Rogers Productions is all about.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: We are so glad that you're here. And I'll start with a general question about ways that health and well-being show up in the programing that you do—and if you care to comment on specific areas that you think are most important, or specific ways that you feel like the media you use can be helpful in helping children and their families learn about and understand health and well-being. And Chris, if I could start with you.

Chris Loggins: Sure. Those topics show up in several different ways across the series. We're now actually producing our eighth season, so we have several episodes that we've done, and my mind immediately goes to health-related subjects to do with going to the hospital, things like getting a shot or even just going to the doctor and what that would be like. And working with Hedda and other child development advisors, we knew that when going to the hospital, one of the things that we could do for children is help them know what to expect. And in that episode, we decided to break it down.

Every episode we have what's called a strategy, which is a little song that is repeated in the Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood episode to help children with different things. And in this episode, it was, When we do something new, let's talk about what we do.

So, in this episode, Daniel talks to his parents. He's a little nervous. He says he's “one stripe nervous” about going to the doctor, but in having a conversation with his parents, they help them feel less nervous about it, and they play through what the doctor's going to do at his regular well-visit. He has a little doctor bag, and they tell him about all the different things that the doctor will do and help reassure him that doctors are there to help him and others be healthy. And, you know, that's one of the earliest episodes that we did that was directly related to visiting the doctor, but there are so many. There's a wide range when it comes to health and wellness.

And we help children manage feelings. We hope that we're helping children and parents manage feelings through the show, with strategies about “what do you do with the mad that you feel,” which is an original Fred Rogers song.

So, I was saying how we have episodes that are directly related to visiting the hospital, visiting the doctor for a well-visit. But there's another one where Daniel learns that he has a peach allergy. And in that episode, the strategy is actually we take care of each other, giving kids the reminder that all of us, hopefully, want to help each other and take care of each other. And Daniel learns in that episode, OK, I have this allergy now, how can I help myself? And the doctor helps give him three things he can do. Well, one of them is ask if he's, you know, trying new foods, ask if there's peaches in it. But then he also learns that his neighbors can help him too in ways like making sure that what they're giving to him doesn't have peaches in it. You know, maybe Baker Aker can have a special snack for him. And these are ways that we can all work together to care for ourselves and others.

Hedda Sharapan: And part of that, too, is Daniel dealing with his own feelings that everybody else is eating peaches, but he isn't.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Yeah. Yep. And how to navigate that on top of everything else.

Hedda, is there anything that you'd like to add on that topic?

Hedda Sharapan: Well, what I love about the work on Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood is that it becomes a way of taking what Fred Rogers had as his basic, fundamental underpinnings of helping children deal with the world they live in—the happy times, the sad times, the scary times. And I love the way Chris just explained it, about how Daniel was a little nervous at first about going to the doctor and asking questions and things like, “Will it hurt?” And how you help children through television, through an experience, you develop relatable characters like Daniel and his friends and the way his parents deal with him. You build these characters and then you help them in situations.

And not to make the strategies as the magic answer, the magic wand, but how you can help children see a character feel a little uncomfortable or not ready—one of the ones that comes to mind is there's a strategy song about getting ready in the morning, you know…eat breakfast, brush teeth, clothes on and shoes on, and then you're out the door. The one part where Daniel is getting himself set up to brush teeth in this rhythm and the father is helping him set it up, and the timer is on, and the father goes to take care of his little sister, and then the father comes back in, and he says, “Well did you do it?” And Daniel says, “Oh no, I, I forgot. I was imagining something and I was…” So, you're allowing children characters they can identify with, that they're relatable. And then the father says, “But it's really important that you brush your teeth.” So, we're not only giving them children who are relatable, but we're giving them parents who understand how to help support the children.

So, I've heard from a lot of parents that it's just as important a program that parents have been enjoying and learning from as it is from the children.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: I'm sure there are many examples like that that you could give, but I'll say what comes to mind for me with the example you just gave about brushing your teeth is, I think we strive to make sure that there are relatable characters or content related to health behaviors because there's so much media now and so many examples, I think, particularly on social media, of really extreme levels of health behaviors or fitness. And that's great. But I think it can feel really intimidating to people who are maybe wanting to make a change in their lifestyle or begin to be more physically active or change their diet. And if the expectation is that you have to be perfect right away at it, or you have to hit some very ambitious goal right off the bat, that's really not motivating and discouraging.

So especially for children, but for all of us, as we think about our health, showing ways that we can be realistic and give ourselves some grace and seek support from the people in our lives, I think it's really important.

Hedda, you've been part of Fred Rogers Productions, the Fred Rogers show from the very first day, which it's such a treat to meet you and to talk with someone who's been a part of such an incredible legacy and really, both of you, everything that happens at Fred Rogers Productions is so important and I would wonder whether you think it's accurate to say the messaging, the topics, the content over those 60 years, it's a lot of consistency and—but so much about the world around us has changed. And I'd like to ask specifically about changes in the way that we use and encounter technology.

So if either of you, maybe Hedda I could start with you, could talk about how in our digital world, how do families find a balance between making good use of technology—and I count television in that category—but how can families balance using technology to help support health and well-being within their family system, with their children, and what are some things that we need to be mindful of and perhaps even careful about?

Hedda Sharapan: Something that comes to mind is a phrase that Fred Rogers said to me years ago. I remember I was doing some writing about parenting and I said something like, it's important for parents to be able to balance loving and limits. And Fred crossed it out and he kindly wrote, “Hedda, limits are part of loving.” It's hard to set limits, especially these days with the technology. It's hard for me sometimes. Sometimes I sort of have to nod my head and say, wait a minute, you've been on this too long, looking through Facebook, trying to find a pattern to knit, for example.

Now, a couple of things come to mind. One of Fred's favorite quotes was a Quaker saying that attitudes are caught, not taught. So I think a lot of this has to do with how children see us using the technology.

I'll just tell you, my nephew was on the phone, coming home, walking in the door, the first time that his daughter was like 6 months old and realized daddy was home, and he was still talking on the phone while he was walking in the house and couldn't reach out to her, couldn't enjoy that moment. And he said, “From now on, I'm going to stop a block away, finish the conversation, and then I'll come in the house.” My daughter told me about something this weekend. They had friends over for a barbecue. The friends had three children, my daughter has two 10-year-old twins. And Amy called the family ahead of time and said, “We are trying to be really careful about technology, so if you have any sporting equipment that the kids can play with in the backyard, please bring [it].” And she said it was a wonderful evening. The kids played wiffle ball the whole time out in the backyard, and it was a very different experience.

We have to take the lead, but it's hard. It's very hard. And I think parents need to keep supporting each other and saying, OK, we can do this, because limits are a part of loving.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: That's wonderful. And worth pointing out that, and maybe a little bit like what we talked about a few moments ago, I don't think that it's hard is a character flaw or a failing, right? That these devices are intentionally designed to be addictive. And so, it will be hard kind of managing those expectations on the part of parents that it will be hard for you and it'll be hard for your kids. And that's not anybody's fault.

Hedda Sharapan: And there's no time when it's over if the children are on the iPads. Fred Rogers specifically said, “I want just a half an hour program.” We do that with Daniel. We carefully make 11-minute pieces and you can say, “It's over now, we're going to turn it off.” That's much harder with the iPad.

Chris Loggins: And I know you've told me how Fred would say the TV is most useful….what was it?

Hedda Sharapan: Television is the only appliance that's best used when it's off. And what he meant is used. In other words, use what you've just seen. Just think about what Chris has just mentioned with getting a shot or going to the doctor, what that means to sit with your child and watch it and talk about it and use it and get to the doctor and say, remember what Daniel did? Remember what…that's using. And that makes it a gift.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Yes, yeah.

Chris Loggins: I think about that a lot when we're making the show, but also in regards to this question about using technology. There's so many useful things to take from what Hedda just said. But also, you know, everything in moderation. And a big thing is just being aware, I think, of what children are engaging with and the technology that they're using. I know, like we've said, that's sometimes easier said than done. But, taking that extra step to use the TV or the iPad with them. We design our shows to be talked about and engaged with after the fact.

The same with the games—we have web games and we have games that are intended to be played on tablets. But always the hope is that caregivers and children are interacting with these things together and then hopefully using them afterwards as well.

And, I also understand that when Fred Rogers decided that he had a vocation to do this work, that he looked at the television as technology that could be used for good and for better. Right? So, think about the technology that we have today. How can we still continue to have that mindset?

Hedda Sharapan: Right. And what did Fred name his company when we first started? Family Communications Incorporated. It was not Fred Rogers Company. Because what he hoped is what he was producing would foster healthy communication in families.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: And it certainly has. Well, I'll very quickly digress just for a moment to tell you what I think is my personal equivalent of your daughter's story. So, I walk my dog at night, just a short walk. And last night it was beautiful evening. And I had my phone with me. I don't have any reason to have my phone with me on this walk, but I had my phone with me and I was, you know, looking at email, doing this or that.

We have, and I know this, we have a family of neighborhood skunks. I almost stepped on a skunk because I was looking at my phone. I am so lucky that I and my dog did not get sprayed. And I thought, Let this be a lesson to you, Beckjord: leave the phone at home. [laughs]

Hedda Sharapan: [laughs] Right, right.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: So, I got very lucky. And, I'm grateful that that it didn't end worse, but no more phone on nighttime walks.

Hedda Sharapan: I'll tell you wherever else I see the phone used a lot is in restaurants. I—my other daughter and her husband, we were out with another cousin and their children, and around the dinner table, my son-in-law started the game: Let's start through the alphabet. What foods we can name? A, B, C, and we went around the table. They're just things like that. I've heard games like, would you rather be a this or be a that? But it's, it's harder. You have to pull yourself away from that easy stuff.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Chris, if I could start with you a just kind of a general question: What are some things you'd like to share with our audience about the programming and how it seeks to impact children and their families, maybe particularly as it relates to health over and above what you've already shared but, what are you most excited about or would like people to be aware of that maybe they're not just by watching the shows?

Chris Loggins: Well, I'm excited that we're producing a new eighth season that hopefully people will be able to tune in and enjoy. We are always being mindful of new topics that we can cover and we have some really, I think, powerful stories in the works for this eighth season. But also, just because it's top of mind, we had a really exciting time at our company because we have another show called Donkey Hodie, which is also inspired by Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. That's another character from Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood that lived in “someplace else.” But they're both on PBS KIDS, and we got to have Daniel Tiger appear in Donkey Hodie but they're two different mediums. So, Daniel Tiger's animation, Donkey Hodie is puppets. So, we went through this really cool production process of turning animated Daniel Tiger into a puppet and now you can see, you know, puppet Daniel Tiger in Donkey Hodie.

So that's something that I think people would maybe like to seek out. But just bigger picture, everything that we do in Fred Rogers Productions, we're putting children first, families first. And on the show we work with experts—as I hope listeners can take away from this episode like Hedda who, you know, is amazing—that are looking at everything that we're doing and advising us all along the way, to make sure that we are putting out content that is useful but also earns the trust of the parents that are choosing our shows for children. That is something that I think is unique to our show.

And I get to work with people that worked directly with Fred Rogers, like Hedda, but not just Hedda. There are others, like Dr. Roberta Schomburg and Dr. Aisha White, that are part of our team. And everything that they bring, to Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood elevates the stories that we want to tell. And I would just add that that's something that started with Mister Rogers on Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood. He worked with Dr. Margaret McFarland as an advisor, who was a child development psychologist at Pitt and was a pioneer in the field. And we're able to continue that, and I like to think of it as one of our secret ingredients to making the show hopefully stand out.

Hedda Sharapan: One of the gifts that Chris brings to this is his experience with children, Beginning with Books and the Carnegie Library. Chris used to read to toddlers and then parents at the library. And see, when I met Fred Rogers, I said, “I'd like to work in children's television.” And he said, “Then why don't you get a master's degree?” But he didn't say a master's degree in TV production. He said, “Why don't you get a master's degree in child development.” The question is not, what can we produce for children? The question is, what is important to children?

And how do you know that? You can't remember from your own childhood what a 4-year-old thinks about, or a 3-year-old. It's being around children and absorbing that and understanding it—the taking your own self back to your own childhood and what's important. And I've always said that for Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, the way I approach it is how—how can we see the world through the eyes of a child and also through the lens of the adult? Just as what Fred Rogers was trying to do to bring the world to see the world through the eyes of a child, and understand how we as adults can support that.

Chris Loggins: Another thing, if I may, that I would just like to mention is one element that we have of Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood episodes: our live action segments that appear in between the two animated stories that relate to what happened in the episode. So just want to talk about those, because those are filmed in and around Pittsburgh. We have kind of gone to some a few other places. We went to the National Zoo in D.C. We've been to West Virginia, Ohio, but the lion's share of them are filmed here featuring real kids. And when I say real kids, they're not actors. They're kids from our neighborhood in these segments. And the reason that we do that is to help children see these topics illustrated in the real world and what that means.

We did the episode about Daniel going to the hospital for an outpatient procedure and got to come to the UPMC Children's and film the hospital with the staff there to show kids what a children's hospital looks like, what the intake process is like. We met a child life specialist there that could talk with the viewers as well. And these are important pieces of the show that we choose to do very intentionally to help them see not only an animated story, but also real people and real-world experiences.

Hedda Sharapan: That reminds me, too, that a number of years ago, a colleague and I worked on the Daniel Tiger parent app. It's a free parent app because parents want to use these slogans, the strategy songs, and they might say, oh my goodness, here the kids are having trouble sharing. “How does that one go? Oh, right!” You can find it's like an encyclopedia. “You can take a turn and then I'll get it back. Oh, that's how it goes. Right, right.” And the kids have seen it illustrated. They've seen Daniel struggle with it.

And then there's another element in the way the program is formatted in that he's introduced to it, he struggles with it, he gets it, and then he applies it in another situation with a friend or somebody else has that and you hear it again so that it's something that's repeatable and relatable. And we try to make this so that it is something that parents can use. And they do find it helpful, that's what we're hearing.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: We will be sure to link that app and the other resources that you've talked about in the notes for this show, so that anyone listening can have direct access to those resources, which sounds fantastic.

One last question, Hedda, if I may, for you. And then I'd like to invite both of you to share anything additional that you'd like to as part of this conversation. But having been a part of this work for a long period of time, is there anything that you think is uniquely exciting about this point in time and anything that is uniquely challenging about this point in time or did these things just have a way of coming back around again and again?I'm really curious about your perspective as you look back over your time in this work.

Hedda Sharapan: All I can say is—I think, yes, there is a lot that's uniquely here and a lot that is uniquely challenging.I think the whole world seems to have different components in it that we didn't have when we were growing up, or even I as a young parent. What that does though, is I remember Fred used to say, “Even though the outsides of children's worlds may have changed, their insides haven't.” And you think about it, I mean, we all need relationships.We all need connections with others who care about us in an ongoing way. We all need places where we feel…[laughs] Here's another Fred Rogers: There's no better feeling than knowing what you have to give is a value to others.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Wow.

Hedda Sharapan: And I mean, this is a part of us, no matter what.And I'll just tell you, I used to say things like, have a happy weekend or a happy birthday, but now I say, I hope you have good moments in your day or good moments in your year. And I think that's sort of the way I've been coping with that uniqueness and the challenges of finding the good. I guess I'm an optimist as well.And it's gotta be a beautiful day in the neighborhood somewhere. I've got to find beautiful spots in this neighborhood.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Yeah, absolutely. Anything either of you would like to share that you haven't had a chance to talk about already?

Chris Loggins: I would just want to say thank you to viewers for choosing to watch our program and also say that we're very grateful and thankful that Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood can be seen on PBS KIDS.Free and accessible media is so important.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: Absolutely. Hedda?

Hedda Sharapan: It's just—it's very touching and heartwarming to be able to continue to work in a production that is really meaningful to people. There it is again, you know, knowing that what you have to give is of value to others, that what we are doing is of value to families.That's the best feeling there is.

Chris Loggins: My favorite part of this work is when, you know, we get letters or we get posts on social media talking about what the show means to them or how people are using it in their lives. That never gets old, that’s my favorite part of being able to do this.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: I bet. Well, I want to thank you both for taking the time to talk with us on “Good Health, Better World,” but even more so, thank you for the incredible work that you've done and that you continue to do, which is so important. Thank you so much.

Hedda Sharapan: Thank you, Ellen.

Chris Loggins: Thank you for having us.

Dr. Ellen Beckjord: We hope you enjoyed this episode of “Good Health, Better World.” Be sure to tune in next time and visit upmchealthplan.com/goodhealth for resources and show notes.  

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